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Setting Realistic Expectations With Your Client – Ferdie Yau Video
Let’s discuss this point Ferdie made during our HoundTable chat yesterday: Your client may want one thing, but is it attainable for this dog and this client?
How do we help our clients have success if what they want is too difficult?
Join the conversation – share one tip or thought here!
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16 Replies
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@jenz @bmacwatt @wagswithwarren @shari @ruthabigail @bernerlabreclectus @rocco @debbie
Tagging you so you can jump in with some feedback too!
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Depending on their expectation or goal, I explain to them that training is a systematic process, starting at easy, then adding difficulty. If they are wanting to start at the finish line, I will try to find an analogy that aligns with something they are familiar with and can relate, (their kids, job, hobby or task etc.). It may be something like, did you teach your 3 year old to ride a 2 wheel bike without training wheels or, did you reach your level of expertise in your job right away or did you start at an entry level position? Most times people can relate. Sometimes, people are just too “persistent” (not stubborn ????)
I wish I thought of my recent experience while on the zoom to share but…. In March, I was referred to help a significantly disabled woman to train her 8 month old mini poodle. Her goal was to make the dog a service dog. When I met the woman, I learned she is a retired teacher with 2 masters and mostly confined to a wheel chair due to a list of unfortunate heath issues. She lives in assisted living housing in unhealthy conditions and has never had a dog. The puppy has only been outside 3 times in its entire 8 month life and by visitors who carried her out in a travel type bag. Admittingly, my first thought was, what “reputable” breeder that it was a good idea that she have one of their puppies. (my opinion through observing that she is in no physical position to realistically and responsibly care for a young dog due to unfortunate circumstances). Perhaps an already trained, older calmer dog could have been a better fit.
Her goal to make this pup a service dog was unrealistic. She admitted to hiring two other trainers who ‘did not know what they were doing since the dog was not learning”. Another “simple” task she wanted was to have the pup stop walking in front of her wheel chair and she wanted to start this outside, right away, like now in this first meeting. I tried to relate training to her in terms of teaching. I asked, would you start your 2nd graders with reading Edgar Allen Poe or Shakespeare? She just chuckled and said kids are different-that this was a dog. She also did not want to pay me until the dog “learned” what she wanted, since the previous 2 trainers “burned” her. At this statement, I replied, would you bring a meal you ordered from McDonalds to Burger King and ask for a free meal since McDonalds got it wrong? That she was trying to hold me responsible for something previous trainers promised and did not deliver, and that was not fair. She finally started to get a little softer. At the end of almost 2 hours of trying to help her understand with demos to show the difficulty that what she wanted was going to take a lot of time and the need to starting inside, she was still adamant I train the pup the way she wanted. I politely told her I could not meet her demands for the success of the dog and her long term goals due to the existing conditions, the pup being in adolescence, almost no exposure to outside/easily distracted by everything, no impulse control, and that everything was a game to her (the pup). At one point when the pup was jumping and biting her, she took out a can of coins to shake, I asked her not to. She said it works, My heart sank to have to watch what could follow. To my surprise, as she shook the can, the pup got more excited, jumped higher (as the woman raised her hand to prevent the pup from reaching it) bit and scratched at her harder in excitement to reach the can!! I explained that this was not a punishment (as the previous trainer told her to do this to stop the jumping, and biting behavior), that this was a reinforcer since the pup was making a seemingly fun game out of it. Nothing would convince this woman she was on the wrong path to a service dog. I asked her if she could open her mind to another way of training and, if she was willing to pay me for my services, that I will always be available to help, that there was no hard feelings and I was always a phone call or email away, anytime. As expected, I have not heard from her. This was a complex potential client that, as much as I enjoy rising to peoples’ challenges (I have always been in customer service type/ results- oriented related careers so, lots of demands and emotions), I was both a little relieved when we could not come to terms to work together and, a little disappointed that we could not resolve our differences either.
What would you have done the same or different in my case?
I know this was long but, thanks for reading! I look forward to reading others’ ideas and examples.
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@jenz : No way, no how, could you have gone more above or beyond in explaining to this woman that her goals were unrealistic. I think everything you said and tried to show her was empathetic, yet real. (I’m sorry, I feel so sorry for that poor puppy, being raised in that situation, not your fault at all!)
Also, that’s ludicrous thinking she would get you to perform this task and not pay you until it was complete!!! What a bully… Great analogy on your part about McD’s/BK!
A better question might be…who would take on this client? And using aversive methods (can of coins shaking) with a potential service dog/puppy is no way to guarantee results.
I have the pleasure of walking an older mobility service dog who was trained using a shock collar for part of her early training career…before I knew her. She was 6 when I started working with her, just training tasks like retrieving her owner’s cane. Her owner recently asked if I could help her teach her dog to heel with her walker (since she was still walking on her own a few years ago). I explained to her that this could take time, but we could certainly try to improve her Heeling with the walker. We are building positive associations right now with treats and the dog is responding well, but she is towards the end of her career, technically, but incredibly smart. The owner is patient and trusts me since I’ve known her for two years. I can’t say she would be that same way if I just met her and that was her demand.
Sorry, kind of babbling here…late night reply! Just wanted to add the positive reinforcement to you, @jenz
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@jenz – Wow what a story. My heart breaks for all involved. Two hours! That is above and beyond. Of course there is a lot to say about this but I’m interested to know your opinion from the business angle. I’m just starting out but I am trying to set up my intake processes so that I can get some more information about what the client’s goals are before the consultation. I don’t require payment in advance of the first lesson (yet) but I have had colleagues really stress the practice of getting payment up front. Do you have a philosophy about this or a specific business practice? Also, do you think setting up like payment up front and intake questionnaires in advance can avoid these types of clients from the get go? Do you think letting clients know what your expectations are as far as doing the practice in between sessions etc. is helpful or hurtful when trying to sell your services? Since you are customer service oriented I’m curious to know your thoughts. And finally for me, I know that I have to be very careful not to get over involved in the woes of others, I try very hard to “stay in my lane”.
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Just like to respond to Jennifer’s post. I think she did a wonderful job handling the situation. I have been training service dogs for many years and I can’t think of a better way on how she handled the client
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Your feedback and support, as someone who specifically trains service dogs is greatly appreciated! I know you have to make difficult decisions with equally difficult conversations when working with potential service dog and clients. You provided a lot of good information on the zoom, too! Thank you for all you do to help dogs and people!
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Oh wow, @jenz you have more patience than I do! She would have lost me the moment she threw the other trainers under the bus. Big red flag there. Some people are simply combative. And there are two sides to EVERY story; it would be interesting to hear from those other trainers! I feel for the woman and certainly the poor dog, but you are smart to know your own boundaries.
You teach people how to treat you by what you allow, what you stop, and what you reinforce.
― Tony Gaskins“ -
Thanks for your feedback and support on my situation!
I agree with your question of “who would take on this client?” The fact that she was so bold about not wanting to pay until the dog learned what she wanted. Imagine only paying for college once you graduated. If you did not graduate, you did not have to pay! (since you did not, in theory, learn anything).
It sounds like you have great rapport- that is wonderful!
What would have been your approach should she not have been so understanding or another client in general?
When you say the pup is at the end of her career, do you simple mean by age, burn out or is there a health factor? I ask because acquaintances recently adopted a retired service dog at the age of 7. I am curious if there is an “age limit”. I am not that involved in service work per say.
Always feel free to “babble”- it is good!
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@programdev
Throwing the trainers under the bus was definitely a red flag but, I interpreted this is as how the woman felt about them, not that they were “bad” trainers. She spewed a lot of emotion. I also recognized immediately that the “problem” was her. She did the exact opposite of what I would ask so, why would she have been different with them. I think she spent her entire life as the “teacher” that she was incapable of being the “learner”.
I love the quote you shared- it is so true!
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Jen, I think this observation you shared is a stark reminder to ALL OF US!
I think she spent her entire life as the “teacher” that she was incapable of being the “learner”. – Jen Z.
It made me think of something Trish McMillan (pro trainer and shelter mentoring expert) once said “Every year, we should learn to do something we suck at, in order to remember how our learners feel.”
We have to continue being learners while we are teaching, to keep us fresh!
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Wow @jenz – Seems like you did as much as you could and this potential client was just not interested in meeting you halfway. Unfortunate… I think some people would rather just ask around until they get the answer they want to hear.
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@warren
“ I think some people would rather just ask around until they get the answer they want to hear.” I completely agree with this statement since many are simply comfortable with what aligns with their own beliefs and ideas.
Have you had any experiences yet that were difficult? How did you overcome them to help?
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@jenz I haven’t yet started providing training services professionally, so I don’t have anything to share there. And thankfully all of my walking/sitting clients have been very receptive when I bring up training-related points. So this discussion has been valuable prep for me!
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Great questions and thanks for giving me the opportunity to explain my thoughts!
This particular potential client was a referral from a colleague.
I personally like to chat on the phone to gather some initial info (I do have a questionnaire) as well as build rapport. Once I meet them for the first time, I finish the questionnaire in person. I allow 1.5 hours and charge accordingly for the first visit. I try to be very transparent about goal setting, expectations and client participation up front. From my days of being a personal trainer, I like to say “I can give you the tools to reach your goals, it is up to you to use them”! ( I add things such as genetics, environmental factors, prior experiences, age etc. will influence what we can and can not change etc.). I would rather lose a client because I am transparent with the correct info and expectations than not provide enough info that they feel they had been mislead and possible create “you didn’t tell me that” type situations.
Initially, I understood what she was asking however, her goals became unrealistic once we met in person and I had a chance to fully understand her physical limitations and the dog’s lack of self control, training and socialization etc.. With this client being dependent on a wheel chair, I knew it was going to be slow going, thus 2 hours was not horrible in my opinion but, there was some wasted time with her demands and her seemingly lack of wanting to understand real world training vs. how she thought it should go. I do not think setting up payment or an initial questionnaire could have avoided this or “these types of clients “.. I think info can easily get misrepresented or lost in any form of communication.
At this time, I do not require payment up front for the initial appointment. I do confirm the appointment a day prior. If they want to buy sessions up front, I do require payment up front to reserve my time and their time slot moving forward.
I always look at each opportunity as a unique scenario. I know when I can have some flexibility, such as in going over time in an appointment or offering “free” advice or demo but, I know when I can not offer flexibility. I try to find a balance between “this is fair” (to the customer) and “this is business” (to me).
I hope this helps answer your questions! Let me know if you need further explanations or have more questions!
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Thanks Jen
Its always nice to understand how others work. Your process seems very clear to me and I always learn from other professionals.
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Hi all. Wow, this sounded like a VERY challenging, ‘unrealistic expectations from the begiinning’ situation that for all intents and purposes, just wouldn’t have been feasible to make happen. I winced when I pictured a months old puppy never having any chance to play or to even be taught what they were suppposed to be doing to control themself, much less just to GO OUTSIDE & feel the grass under their feet. I for one, totally hold that Breeder accountible for, as said, even thinking for a minute that it was OK to sell this woman a puppy – You couldn’t be a caring breeder nor just an ethical adult, and do that to a puppy or a dog! (O.K. sorry for the negs, but I just had to get that off my chest) I love this whole conversation as it deals with something I haven’t really experienced and won’t even be reading about or truly analyzing til I get farther in the Phases. But I do have one thing to add- a greatly helpful book for ‘new’ trainers or not-new trainers if they’re open to some excellent advice on how to interact with clients towards goals for the training, or jsut about anything… Here it is: “The Human Half of Dog Training. Collaborating with Clients to get results” by Rise VanFleet, CDBC AND Ph.D (former child & family therapist!) A flat out AWESOME resource and quite a bit of much needed sympathy for humans- both the owners and the trainer alike.. Published by & available from Dogwise. (I hope mentioning this doesn’t constitue “advertising for your services” as per the guidelines, but feel free to strike it out , if so.)
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