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Cattle Dog – Demand Barking
Hey pro trainers,
Posting a client’s sincere issue that they are facing, and I have run out of ideas.
We are training a 2 y/o Cattle dog, who previously had separation anxiety and unknown history. She is a wonderful zen dog, I just love her personality outside. We started with solving chasing and barking at the cars and some LLW. And now working on demand barking.
Their vet has put her on medication, her demand barking during the day has gone down significantly, but they’re still seeing 2 big spurts of barking: first thing in the morning, and last thing at night. In the morning, she usually jumps on their bed to wake them up and bark until one of them gets up to feed her.
her nighttime routine: They take her out to pee before bedtime (around 9:30pm) and instead of calming down before bed, she exhibits similar behavior to the morning, barking at Dad parent and trying to block him from getting into bed.
Her demand barking during the day used to look like barking at the owners and previously they have rewarded the barking, gave attention, good massages, pets, took outside, the history is too much. So, any ideas, opinions and recommendations are really helpful. Thanks in advance!! Appreciate it!!
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29 Replies
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Very interesting post @RADS , I’m looking forward to hearing the ideas ????from the community and I want to stress that there is no such thing as a bad or wrong idea as long as what you post is dog-friendly and people-friendly. ????Share all your thoughts and questions on this fearlessly guys! We can do some cool brainstorming and problem solving here. ????
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This is an interesting one @RADS – thank you for sharing with us! One technique I have tried in the past is a relatively low-key activity for the dog to do to help them settle into “bedtime mode.” Essentially creating a “calm down, it’s time for bed” routine like you do with small children. Could they perhaps use a similar technique where the dog gets a tasty bedtime snack and is asked to enjoy that snack on her bed or in her crate?
Has anyone else tried a similar technique? Did it work for you? What other methods have folks tried?
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Thanks for sharing your ideas @Cait
Something like a chew stick on her bed?
Before the barking starts, prompt her to bed and provide a chew stick.
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Right! As alternates to things like bully sticks, which can be fattening if given often, I’ve suggested veggies (if the dog’s a fan). Something like a peeled carrot dipped in peanut butter as one suggestion.
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Great suggestion! I’ve used: packed frozen Kongs (filled with all kinds of things including chopped cooked, smashed veggies or pumpkin puree with bits of kibble); licky mats (I freeze these, too; gnawing bones (raw knuckles for dogs who can handle it and don’t resource-guard); the occasional pig ear or other “parts-department” chews. Like @Cait said, we want to keep in mind nutrition and the long-term goals of health and calming.
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I lived a tiny version of this when my darling Aussie Joy was a pup. We had just started in agility which she LOVED VERY MUCH! And after a few times coming to the facility, she was super enthused and shared to all the world by screaming. I don’t mean barking. I mean, screaming!
So, away from the trigger (for the cattlebug, it’s going to be a different room and a different time of day than his trigger times), I taught her to lie down silently (lying down while vocalizing never paid). She learned that lying down was a “please” that got her what she wanted. I adopted a certain posture (facing her, hands clasped in front of me like the “fig leaf” so many wedding photographers hate) that meant the vending machine was available. If she offered me the down at that time, HIGH value food would land in front of her nose. And then, we would run to play the agility game(s). I started adding some duration after that, until ultimately, she’d lie there, staring at me, for the entire class period until it was her turn. It took about a month to build and was worth every second.
She’s 10 now and the other day she was trying to get me to come play with her. She jumped up on the bench where I was sitting outside, looked at me and downed. ????
I’ll see if I can locate the video of her lovely voice so you can all appreciate her singing. haha
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Hi @RADS ,
From the description of the dog jumping on the bed in the morning and blocking the owner’s access to their own bed at night, I’m guessing that the dog isn’t crated overnight. If that is correct then habituating the dog to the crate would be my first suggestion. Crate training can be very effectively combined with Caitlyn’s advice about creating some calm time before bedtime. The morning release from the crate should also be a very low-key but positive event.
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Yes, that’s right @Chris . She is in the process of crate training. To be honest, there are a lot of things going on, they are moving to a new place, and have begun crate training, they are also working on anxiety. Hopefully, with a new house, with new rules set in, they see some success.
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That’s some good background information @RADS – some of these barking episodes may have their root in uncertainty around her routines as she acclimates to her new house. You could also recommend Adaptil, the dog appeasing pheromone, as a diffuser in the rooms she spends a lot of time in. Since it’s a pheromone and non-narcotic, it won’t react with her medication and may help her feel a little more at ease.
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Thank you much for the suggestions, I have never personally used Adaptil, but I am going to suggest it to them. Thanks again
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@RADS , Cait’s right – for some dogs, DAP (Adaptil and other brands) work well. In my experience, about 60% of the dogs I try it with show a benefit. But 40% don’t. It’s not an inexpensive product, so I always suggest trying it with that caveat. If they purchase it somewhere that can accept returns, they should save their receipt! Good luck, and please let us know how it goes.
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One layer I’d like to add to all of these great suggestions from our fellow members is timing of the enrichment that is given. As you astutely noted @RADS there is a reward history of giving the dog something she wants AFTER she barks. That’s the recipe for demand behaviors of course.
So, if the barking times are predictable, the key is to give the dog the enrichment item a bit BEFORE the barking period normally starts. ????This way the dog can have a satisfying experience, but NOT as a reward to demand barking. It is a common mistake to give enrichment, but to “forget” to do so until after the dog has demanded it.
I would also consider enrichment given at another random time each day, so it doesn’t become an expectation only in the morning and evening. Start to break up the pattern and at the same time, don’t form a new one.
Factor in @Catherine ‘s story: working on quiet activities like Downs, Down-Stays and Mat Training may also help and can be coupled with crate training as @Chris suggested. Build the habit and ability of “quiet” calmness. Leslie McDevitt has great exercises and insights on this in her Control Unleashed books and you can find some videos online too. She’s goes so far as to reward dogs for taking “a deep breath”. ☮-
Thank you @David
Break the patterns. I am thinking if she gets just good enrichment just during the peak of demand barking, we will be inadvertently giving her expectations which means more anxious and the reason to demand bark, makes much sense. I am going to transfer all this to them in our next sessions. Thank you all for your time :))) <3
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What fantastic techniques/ideas! This will come in very helpful for a client I’m seeing this weekend. An adolescent pup who has started demand barking – and it’s been reinforced by “Dad” always picking her up in response ???? I love this thread.
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Hey trainers!
Posting another issue with the same dog, this time how to sleep train the dog?
Dog name: Sydney.
About Sydney:
Previously had separation anxiety.
Had reactivity to cars and sometimes kids running. (both of them changed now)
But, she is attached much to MOM.
Parents recently commented on her erratic sleep schedule after Daylight Savings time.
Quoting from clients’: After Daylight Savings Time especially, Sydney’s wake up times have been all over the place and she’s been moving where she sleeps.
At first, Sydney was doing great – she would sleep in her crate in our room until 6:30 or 7, climb on the bed with us for a half hour and then indicate that she wanted breakfast. After daylight savings, she started sleeping on the couch in another room. Initially she started waking us up around 5, so we tried to put up the baby gate in front of our bedroom, hoping she might whine for a bit but eventually go back to sleep. Instead she whined and barked for almost an hour on and off, which we were concerned about much. If we let her roam free with no gate, whenever she wakes up, her goal seems to be waking Alex (MOM) up at all costs. She jumps all over her, barks, etc, even if we ignore her. Often if Andrew (DAD) moves or tries to get up, Sydney will persistently nip at him and has peed on the bed a few times in her stress.
Thank you all in advance for any tips and ideas on how to sleep train Sydney.
Thank you for reading the post. <3
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Hi @RADS
It sounds like you are doing some great work here. While the crate training is going on little by little getting your client used to happy crating, you might use a tether so that the dog can sleep in her bed but won’t be able to jump up to wake up the owners in the morning. All of the wonderful enrichment they were giving her, massages, etc. could be done before she starts to demand bark, then the enrichment kong. Then, EAR PLUGS. So they might have to really set themselves up to withstand an extinction burst of the demand barking. As long as they and the dog are safe, and they know the dog has had her needs met (pottying, food, water, warmth, in her bed safely tethered) they could wait out the barking. Since the medication seems to be helpful and this is the last routine that seems to continue to give them trouble. I would also try to change the routine by having the owners set their alarm for 15 min. before the dog usually wakes up and wake up first, then take the dog out immediately before any barking. Eventually they can set their alarm one minute later etc. I would love some feedback from @David and @Catherine on the extinction idea. This might only be something that you would want to try after several other methods (training a night time routine, using DAP, quiet long stroke petting). I have seen cases where a dog is “overtired” and vocalizing then, boom, just like a toddler with too little rest, they are just out like a light snoring. Granted I’ve seen this more with puppies and adolescent dogs but I think it is worth a try if other methods are not working.
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Hey @Abbie
Sorry for the tardy reply, thank you for taking the time and responding with unique ideas.
I hope I convince them to get up early before the dog wakes up and work from there. This might work!!!
THANKS!
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Hi @RADS ! You are to be commended for patiently working with these clients, and they are to be commended for their efforts with Sidney. This is one lucky dog! In your initial post, you noted, In the morning, she usually jumps on their bed to wake them up and bark until one of them gets up to feed her. So, we know this is not a new behavior. Because the dog is already generally anxious, @Abbie ‘s very good tip that could work for a lot of dogs (waiting her out), might create more anxiety and cause problems beyond what we might normally see in an extincition burst. A LIMA approach would have us try other methods if possible, first.
Any chance these folks can afford a Manners Minder or a Pet Tutor? Or if not, can you afford one that you can “rent” to them? If so, we could work on reinforcing alternate behaviors. I would put the machine in place near where the dog is sleeping at night (and kept in place by either a tether or a gate placed further from the master bedroom.) The key would be to wake up before the dog and note that she is quiet, then trigger the remote to feed some kibble for quiet. This would need to be done before the dog is aware the humans are awake, to work best. Rewarding for quiet at increasingly longer intervals, without the humans “present” could turn this behavior around.
If this is not possible, another idea is to go ahead and get up, engage with the dog, again BEFORE she starts barking), and do not feed her. Simply love on her, reassure her and then bring her into the bedroom, where she can have snuggles and petting, but no food until she settles – even a bit – and the say “breakfast” and walk her out to feed her. The food comes after she lies down – even for a moment, at first, not as a result of vocalization. Their breath (slow and deep) and their touch (slow or still or not at all) can help the dog settle.
The feeding itself should be a brain puzzle toy – and this should vary! ACDs are extremely intellegent and my guess is this dog is completely understimulated. Even a working ranch is hardly enough for the normal ACD. They create all kinds of trouble, ???? no matter where they are! They are working dogs, through and through.
If they miss it, either of the above, and the dog starts barking, they can begin walking down the hallway. Pause before coming into view. Whe dog stops – even for a second – click that silence and toss food around the corner (while remaining out of sight). Again, the goal is to reward the silence and create longer intervals of silence over a few (less sleep) days.
Finally, I highly recommend varying feeding times for this dog. There is NEVER a set time for food bowls or puzzle toys. In the evening too – the time should change within a 3-hour window. In fact, I would move toward eliminating the morning bowl as quickly as possible, replacing all those calories with late morning/noon puzzle toys or lawn scatter-feeding, or trick training or the like. But, this will be a gradual shift, teaching the dog that barking isn’t going to work, but silence will.
With a dog that is anxious and frustrated, all this barking is more about trying to communicate that they have a need and it is up to her caregivers to increase her mental stimulation. I would rather frame it as emotional frustration and anxiety for the clients to create more compassion and help them learn how to meet her actual needs, rather than seeing her as a “demanding” dog. Does that make sense?
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Hey @Catherine
Thank you for going over the post and replying with so many ideas!!
WOW. Ok, this is the first time hearing about Manners Minder, I looked it up and have to say I am buying it. But let me ask them if this can work for them.
About Syndey’s physical and mental exercise, in the past due to overstimulation, the dog started to show reactivity towards cars and kids running. When asked how much they exercised her, they said they used to take her out 3times/day, and it is usually 45-60min each and once a week hike/trek. And at the same time, there was demand barking as well. So, we did the reactivity training and came up with a routine with medium physical and lots of mental exercises, and of course, there is no set schedule, it depends on the dog, her mood, environment, experience, and exposure. It worked out, well, for the reactivity, but the demand barking particularly at her MOM has remained the same. Do you think we have to go back to her old routine?
I think varying feeding times is a great one, we can teach her flexibility, and there is no set schedule for anything, and that way she will stop expecting or become anxious about the event (of being fed).
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@RADS Can you join the enrichment chat tomorrow with Allie and Emily? Or, have you read their book? Enrichment is so very much more than physical exercise. And with a working dog like this (especially one who is purpose bred to move bulls by BARKING and biting), they need to focus on MENTAL enrichment most of all. The exercise is good – but lots of exercise creates a fit athlete, with a ton of stamina – who can keep doing unwanted behaviors forever and always. ????
Mental enrichment, on the other hand, makes a dog mentally fatigued and less interested, therefore, in changing their environment through barking or other unwanted behavior. Clicker training (especially Click to Calm ala’ Emma Parsons or calming brain games at Kikopup), food puzzle toys, shaping games, and advanced trick training (she can help with the laundry) as well as scentwork are important for dogs like these.
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Yes, I will be joining tomorrow, I have not read their book yet, I will be getting it once I finish reading the ones I bought last month ????
That is true, mental exercise tires the dog the same as physical exercise. We have started training her with Triebball, or a simple retrieve and goal the item game.
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@Catherine thanks for weighing in on the extinction option. I was wondering if that was LIMA compliant and I’m glad you suggested other methods. Always learning.
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@Abbie Spot on! Yes! If we visit the “road map” for behavior change by Susan Friedman, et.al., we see that extinction is one of our last options. If we consider the emotions involved in frustration and how arousal can escalate a dog’s behavior, well, it’s also much safer for the humans to start with “happier” training methods, don’t you think? I don’t know anyone who wants to be frustrated.
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An additional consideration with extinction is that it may work in a lab setting, and in theory, but for most situations in practical reality extinction is hard to pull off. The reason? It is very hard to eliminate all rewards for a behavior. The rewards may come from other people who are not 100% on board with the effort and they may come from the environment itself! They even come unintentionally from those who are trying to be 100% on board with the effort.
Extinction works best for behaviors that are not tied to intense emotions, not instinctual, and don’t have a strong reward history (in terms of time span and reward value). Ex., getting a dog to stop trying “paw” as their first behavior offered every time you have a treat – that is a reasonable goal that you could use extinction for.
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Extinction works best for behaviors that are not tied to intense emotions, not instinctual, and don’t have a strong reward history (in terms of time span and reward value). – David Muriello
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Hi Everyone,
I’ve been reading through this post and have gathered some ideas! Thank you!
I have a client whose 8 month old golden ‘demand barks’. It happens when she has guests over (and is not giving her full attention to her pup). It also happens when she’s busy on her computer. She lives in a small studio condo and simply cannot have her pup barking… this is causing her lots of anxiety.
She’s looking for other ideas than having to give her pup a bully stick/bone etc. to settle on her bed. I recommended more exercise and enrichment, especially just before guests come over. I’ve also recommended working on down-stay and building duration.
Any and all other ideas would be really appreciated!????
Cheers,
Sandy
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Hi @sandy , I’m working with a client now with an extreme demand barker, at a pitch that threatens to split your head open, as well as manic jumping. In cases like this, I recommend the following: more exercise; more enrichment; lots of impulse control exercises; and VERY consistent rewarding of the absence of barking. At my second visit, the dog I mention above hardly barked or jumped on me at all. Instead, he offered DOWN at my feet (with a waggy tail no less!), and I rewarded that on a variable schedule, gradually stretching the time between treats.
After the above strategies are firmly in place, you need to counsel the client carefully about absolutely not giving the dog any attention when he’s barking. That includes: no looking at the dog (this is super-hard for a lot of people to remember); no talking or reprimanding; no giving of alternative cues; no pacifiers given just then; and of course, NO treats! Walking away may also be helpful.
If you’re not already familiar with the PupPod auto-treat dispenser, check it out. A dog can be happily and independently engaged with this for extended periods of time. Pricy, though.
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Hi @virginiad Thanks so much!! ????
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