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Service dog in training, trained via aversive methods
@David @Catherine and our community peeps.
I received an email from someone that is asking me to assist with public access and task training. I have big doubts about getting involved with this case. The pup was trained on a shock collar and the person says she wants to take a more positive approach. What would be the pros & cons of signing on this person as a client?
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18 Replies
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Thanks for bringing this question @Gin There’s a lot to consider here. I have some thoughts, but first would love to hear yours. What are your biggest concerns with this case and client? Are they about philosophy? Methods? Getting the dog “restarted” as an R+ learner (a ton to unpack here)? Or are you asking more about working with the human side and their skill level?
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Great question, we’re ready to expand on this with Catherine’s follow ups, let us know when you’re ready Ginger!
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My reply keeps disappearing ????
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Hi Ginger – I don’t want you to say more than you are comfortable with but was this dog originally “trained” by a facility in CT?
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@David @Catherine
Thank you both for responding!
First, let me say that I find it appalling that any dog would be trained using aversive methods but svc dogs….really!?!
I’m most concerned with the legalities that could occur with this case. Should something negative occur while in public or not, my name, business name and reputation as a svc dog coach using positive methods, could be blemished.
Is it possible to diminish the mental triggers that may be instilled during the time it would take to train to svc dog in training status?
This dog was in a balanced board and train facility and a shock collar was used. Who knows what all went on there.
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@Gin Oh, you are so smart to look at this through “business” eyes as well as everything else. I have heard of good hearted trainers facing terrible legal challenges because of insufficient contractual and insurance coverage. And in the end, you have to listen to your gut, no matter how much you want to help the dog. You need to be able to keep providing service to your clients and not risk it all for this one case.
That said, you are also raising excellent questions about what this dog has gone through. If your methods require the dog to be a “free and creative thinker” and his light for trying has been dimmed by aversives (remembering that that is the function of punishment; to stop behavior and it does work very well for that, with the fallout being stopping a lot of other behavior too), then perhaps they are not a fit for that reason as well?
Years ago, I adopted an 11mo old golden boy with the intent to train him to be a service dog. The previous owners had a shock collar on him “We never even use it any more – we only have to beep it and he stops doing whatever he was doing.” The result? It took me two weeks to teach a nose-touch to a target stick. The dog was so shut down; he’d learned to NOT TRY NEW THINGS. Meanwhile, he was a gregarious, mouthy lout (never had been shocked for that!) who often grabbed clothing and arms in efforts to get anyone to play with him. Anyway, I eventually trained him a few tricks using a clicker, but he never, ever offered the kind of behaviors that the dogs trained using force-free methods do. That makes sense, right? It was a tough go and I eventually transitioned him to other work for many other reasons but the effect of his foundation being “Try new things and get hurt” was very difficult to overcome. (He did respond well to lure-reinforcement training for obedience/manners – but that is not the same as service work!) This story has a happy ending – he became my heart-dog for many, many years. Photo attached.
You might evaluate your legal coverages as well as the dog (and the human) before making a decision.
And I would love to hear what other trainers have experienced in situations like this … more stories out there?
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Ginger-
What an interesting situation. Since you haven’t met the dog yet, maybe you could do an evaluation? It would be great to support this person’s switch to positive methods but I would also be concerned for your reputation as well. I’d love to know the follow up. -
It is sad enough to know that rescue/shelter dogs have experienced significant trauma. It is disappointing, sad, and somewhat depressing to hear that dogs being trained for service to humans are also traumatized with aversives by their handlers. Jeesh!
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Thank you so much for such a detailed response! Also bless you and your adorable golden boy.
My contract is solid as is my insurance. My gut is telling me to decline assistance for this person. Even if aversive methods were not used, as the existing trainer there could liability involved.
I worked with a Maltipoo early in my career and discovered upon arrival that there was an electronic fence installed. Because my contract was not solid at the time, I decided to work with this client having them remove the collar during training. During the second class, my watch beeped and for the next three classes the dog wanted nothing to do with me. He would not engage with me at all. All ended well for all parties and my contract became more precise regarding all things aversive.
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Thank you for your wise words. I have decided to decline working with this person. My very wise student director with CATCH once told me that we can’t save them all. She also reminded me to never burn bridges. I will decline in a professional, humble manner
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@Gin thanks for sharing your decision. @Abbie I’m sorry there were technical challenges in making your reply to Ginger – please let me know what happened so we can address it and see if there’s a way to solve the issue. I appreciate you both and the wisdom, compassion and heart you bring to our community.
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HI Catherine-
I think it the tech glitch was my fault. Somehow I typed everything and then probably didn’t hit the “post” correctly.
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I want to second (or third!) the gratitude for the sharing of these stories, the helpful advice, and your decision on this, Ginger. You guys rock ????⚡
These are tough decisions and being able to express your thoughts in a community that understands and can reflect back useful points is huge. Not only that, but all of us who read the discussion can learn from the experiences and thinking that is being shared. It makes my day to see a community like this in action. Thank you guys! -
@David
I agree completely! Sometimes knowing the thoughts of others simply validates the thoughts of the person asking the question. A community such as this has been needed for so long! So much knowledge regardless of who one might be. I learn something from every client / dog I have ever trained with.
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Sometimes knowing the thoughts of others simply validates the thoughts of the person asking the question. A community such as this has been needed for so long! So much knowledge regardless of who one might be. – Ginger Hetrick
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Made my day with this comment, @Gin thanks. ????
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Ginger, I appreciate you writing about this situation, as well as reading the follow up responses from all involved. I have been looking into doing service dog training and what it entails, and this is a situation that I had not considered before. I am glad to hear that you chose to go with your gut feeling on this. @Gin
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