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Trouble shooting LLW with a formerly free running dog
Greetings Digging Peeps-
I need some help with brainstorming possible ideas for a LLW case.
Context:
New rescue, +/-40 lbs medium sized hound mix from down south was found with her pups under an abandoned building. Two of her 4 pups survived through rescue. Mama brought up north and fostered and now adopted by my clients. Dog is people and dog social. Very affectionate and food motivated. A dream to train in the house, very responsive although occasionally will present with a tail tuck but other body language is relaxed and attentive. Dog gets seriously car sick (vomiting, drooling) and has anxiety in the car. Vet visit currently being scheduled for meds if needed and pattern games (super bowls) building up confidence towards car first practicing in house then moving towards car in garage.
Pet parents are working on leash skills, pattern games (1,2,3) in the house with good results along with targeting and name game, collar grab for safety and general relationship building.
The main issue is this:
Dog lives on a large, rural, unfenced property near a busy state route. Any attempt to leash walk is met with serious nose to ground crittering and pulling, like epic sled dog, digging in, off to the races pulling. Outdoors this dog will only respond to extremely high value food for a second and only occasionally. Currently using a front clip harness, suggested front and back leashes clipped to harness and collar also suggested use of tactical harness for fear of dog escaping from current harness. Dog is not interested in flirt pole or tug games (yet) for alternative exercise.
Finding intermediate (outdoor in parking lot/indoor at home depot etc.) spaces for walking is thwarted by car sickness.
I would love to avoid a head halter if at all possible so I would love other troubleshooting ideas. Or suggestions on how to determine if using a head harness is the best option at this point.
I would love to get these wonderful clients and this amazingly resilient sweet dog a quick win on their journey to loose leash walking. Welcome to all suggestions of further questions to ask my clients or ways to get this dog’s needs met without walking for now (we are doing find it and other scent games).
All ideas are welcome! Thanks for reading.
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20 Replies
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HI @abbie , I wondering if there is a possibility for a compromise in the yard — since it’s not fenced, could a long overhead trolley be installed, like the Tumbo Trolley, which has a great shock-absorber system built in for when a dog nears the end of the zip line (which is really just until a dog quickly learns the outer limits of the trolley anyway) so this hound mix can safely engage in sniffing and ground trailing?
I’m thinking, if she has an outlet for this very important-to-her activity, her folks can give her daily access to this and then start slipping in moments of training. Maybe, a quick check-in for a bit of steak, then immediate release to ‘go sniff’ again. And then gradually build in more skills, including LLW, before releasing to ‘go sniff’ again.
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@virginiad Yes! I suggested a trolley line but I was worried about safety. Thanks for this brand. I’ll prioritize it as a interim solution.
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Yes, it certainly has to be installed properly, and the dog’s harness needs to be safe and secure. You can also help to teach the dog the end/boundaries by walking them to those ends a bunch of times so they can discern the limits.
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@virginiad and @catherine I have a question for you guys and others. In your experience what kinds of questions do you ask yourself and your clients to see when a head halter (I’m thinking of the TRIX head bridle, not the “gentle leader”) may be something to start to desensitize? I don’t really want to use this option until/unless I’ve really explored many other ways to solve this issue. However, I also want to be able to spend a good while on desensitization if ultimately a head collar is an interim solution until the spring when fencing options are more realistic. Have you ever used a head collar when the issues are more critter focused?
Thanks for any insight.
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@abbie, though I don’t tend to race to a HH as a solution (it is, after all, more of a management tool), there are scenarios when it is a literal godsend. Think very large or strong dog paired with petite woman or elderly person or disabled person. I’ve had many clients describe their dogs literally dragging them on the ground or them being yanked off their feet. No person should have to endure that.
I’m also returning more to the idea of using a HH with dogs — no matter their size — who are strongly reactive on leash (lunging/barking at triggers), especially when the dog is not easily redirected to other behaviors using food rewards.
Having said all that, I know many dogs find wearing a HH aversive, at least initially. So I stress the need to desensitize properly. If there’s any possibility that a HH may be needed, I’d encourage the person to make a bit of time each day to work on this desensitization, making it a pleasant training exercise.
I also steer people to specific HH brands, as I hate the Gentle Leader design. I like designs along the style of Haltis — more room in the nose loop (when there’s no tension on the leash) and side/cheek straps for improved fitting.
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I don’t love the gentle leader either. I agree. Thanks for your thoughts.
I like the trix but I find it a bit complex for pet parents.
https://www.newtrix.ca/index.cfm?page=User_Guide
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@abbie This nugget is a whole ‘nuther post! All about head halters… but for a quick run down, I will use them when the quality of life for the dog and owner warrants it. In other words, if the power of the dog is keeping the owner from being able to safely walk the dog, then a HH might be the way to go.
I’m curious about what you said… the dog is interested in critters but NOT the flirt pole? Why do you think? Is scent a factor? What about trying some tracking games to engage the scent/hunt drive?
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@catherine I know! I thought a flirt pole was going to be a no brainer!. I’m still figuring out what is going on here. It could be that she doesn’t doesn’t know how to use toys and has to be taught? I also tried a tug toy with sheep wool and that got her a bit interested but only 2 on a 10 scale with no tug action. There is also a lot of tail tucking in general in the house simultaneously with other more relaxed body and play signals so I”m not sure if this is an indication of possible hind end pain or something else. Vet check is in a few days.
I’ll know more in the coming weeks as I see the clients again. The tough thing is not being able to make any progress on their main pain point. This is why I’m in trouble shooting mode for this case.
I’m wondering what else I can ask the pet parents to help me understand her behavior outdoors. They have told me she barks at birds in the trees and seems to go “on the hunt” for critter smells etc. but did not go crazy over a deer 50 yards away.
Yes I agree, scent games are the way to go. I’m leaning on Find it in particular and having them play find it before any walks. She seems to be great at them in the house but no response outdoors. The issue is that nothing (chicken etc.) is competing with outdoors so I need a way to build up value for the scent games to compete.
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This: “There is also a lot of tail tucking in general in the house simultaneously with other more relaxed body and play signals…” sounds like a conflicted dog… and fits with the lack of interest in the flirt pole. If a dog is anxious, they cannot play. The high-drive-pulling-sniffing response on leash could be a whole lot more about displacement/stress than it is about “crittering.”
Are you seeing other signs of anxiety @abbie ?
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Have they practiced in the house? I tell all my clients to practice LLW in the house first. Up and down a hallway or back and forth across a room. Then go outside to a very limited stretch of yard or pavement, and keep going back and forth over that short stretch until that path is boring, and paying attention to handler/treats is more fun.
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Hi @Shari Thanks! Yes, they are practicing in the house. The dog is wonderful in the house, very attentive and food motivated. I think the outside environment with all the critters and birds is extremely stimulating and perhaps over arousing so I’m looking for a middle way. We are going to try the garage which has different smells than the house but still less distractions.
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Awesome. The garage sounds like a great idea. Good luck!
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Update on this case…
I just had my third lesson with these wonderful folks and this adorable dog. And our first attempt at walking down their driveway. I learned a very important thing…. the hella pulling from our earlier lesson seems to be stemming from a fear of the cars parked in the driveway.
Last time, since we didn’t get out of the driveway area I concluded the pulling was a result of critter tracking (although there was some of that, it wasn’t at the intensity that getting away from the cars was). Duh! I can’t believe I missed this! I was just so stumped because there was so much attention and food motivation in the house, and because I didn’t expect the pulling and was so afraid for the dog’s safety (slipping the harness etc.) that I didn’t see the stressed out body language at first. This time, I had a better plan and was able to see the stressful body language around the cars in the driveway and got right past them as soon as possible. She became a different dog, just 50 feet away.
We played “find it” (bowling for treats) past the cars and then practiced the indoor games (1,2,3 , leash handling skills, uturns) from the last two weeks outdoors on the long driveway away from cars and the pup did great! She is a dream on leash. We still have work to do, but we are making good progress.
So the real issue is going to be getting her to be more relaxed around cars. First step is controlled unleashed superbowls game starting further away and eventually moving closer and closer to the car. Then gradual desensitization to being in the car while it isn’t on or moving etc. Plus getting more secure plan for riding in the back seat (crate or crash tested seatbelt harness).
Does anyone have other ideas/suggestions?
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It was great to read this update, @abbie !
Do the pet parents have a garage by any chance (or a friend or family member with a garage)? Is so, it might be interesting to give the dog off-leash freedom to explore in a closed garage with a car parked in there, giving her free choice about when she wants to approach, etc. You could mark approaches, and then toss treats in a way that moves her farther from the car, then repeat as she approaches again.
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GREAT WORK Abbie!! I love that you could see her body language and parse this out. I’m seeing it in my mind, how escape avoidance could look like pulling toward something – that low to the ground hauling the person behavior looks similar in both contexts… well done, to figure this out!
If the distance from the road is enough, I might consider a long line, slowly letting the line out as soon as you walk out the door giving the dog the 30 feet or so to move away. (Be careful that she doesn’t have speed as she goes, or take a wrap of the line around something solid so she doesn’t rip it from your hands – she should be in a body harness for this, in any case.) But if it is safe to do so, a long line might give you a better read on what her distance threshold is. You could play treat-retreat, having the person standing near the car, letting the dog move away and come in as they are able. Once the dog can approach the car comfortably, you could work on getting into the car in a similar fashion. I’ve found having both back doors open and letting the dog go through it is a good first step. @zaneb had some posts about working through this awhile back.
Thanks for the update on this interesting case!
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@catherine @virginiad … tldr
we are making a lot of progress. Superbowls and slow desensitization is working for the car. I will add treat, retreat this week. Plus the owners are only taking her in the car to go romp at the local dog park, which she loves. The other day she jumped in the car to go to the park! This dog is really making loads of improvements. She can loose leash walk on a long line on the driveway and recalls on a long line outside as long as we are on pavement or the dirt driveway (deer poo is too distracting for now so we can’t use the field yet)
She has been out of the shelter and with her adopted pet parents for about 2 months now. I’m finding as she adjusts and gets comfortable, I’m seeing new behaviors develop. Now that she is more comfortable in the car and is getting along with dogs at the dog park (I saw some video and body language looked curved and wiggly with appropriate feint and parry type play) she is feeling her cheerios. However, on the last dog park visit she found a hole in the dog park fence and escaped quickly. Luckily she was recovered immediately and the hold has been repaired. It seems that just when we are able to get a handle on one of her behaviors another one appears. As a free living dog prior to adoption, I’m not surprised she is a flight risk but it is scary for the pet parents and off leash time seems really important for this dog.
We are working hard on recall and slowly adding distractions. She is also now pulling to get to and eat deer poop in the surrounding fields which is extremely plentiful in this rural environment. I’m mainly working on a frustration free leave it for this but it is going to take adding distractions/raising criteria slower than I would like given my time with the pet parents. Unless they continue to book me, our lessons are over in two weeks. From a professional standpoint I realize that we can’t solve every issue but I do want to give these pet parents tools they can use long after I’m not seeing them every week. Any suggestions about prioritization or how you handle ending a set of sessions with so much left to do? I don’t want to minimize the progress we have made but I do want them to continue to work with her.
Thanks.
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@abbie , I wonder if you highlight all the many strides the dog has made and also express excitement about wanting to help them achieve success in other areas, you could then suggest a few more sessions, perhaps spaced out a bit more, if the expense is a potential concern for the pet parents…? I would bring up this topic before the final lesson, so they have some time to think about it and the added value it would offer.
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Great suggestions, thanks Virginia!
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Thanks for tagging me in here @catherine ! 😀 Sorry for the delay in my response. Let’s just call it a busy few weeks.
I like all this advice. I had a similar situation where a client dog of mine would get increasingly nervous as he closed in on the car from day care. I advised my client to bring high value treats every time he was at day care as well as just to take his time with approaching the car, if possible. Luckily for him, the whole parking lot was enclosed by a fence and an electric gate. So he could let his dog have some freedom, I think that really helped because it then became his choice on what he did.
Anyway, other stuff was suggested as well but I could go on and on. 😀
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Thanks for jumping in, @zaneb – I’m glad you are busy; must mean things are going well!
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