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When the Bitey Dogs Grab YOU Instead of the Toy – What Can You Do?
Lucy is a very energetic Australian Cattle Dog pup and she loves her toys. But she would grab people’s hands when they tried to pick up a toy to throw for her again. What is the trainer focusing on in this training segment, and what is the cue for the new behavior?
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16 Replies
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I love this question about the demo and also want to say this is such a great example of using two different reward types.
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having lucy lay down or back off away from the toy. Using a hand signal pointing down toward the toy and also rewarding when the correct behavior is seen. Good job!!
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I think the trainer is focusing on getting Lucy to leave the toy on the floor without trying to grab it from the hands of people. The cue is when she says the word “drop” and also leaves her hand above the toy for a little to reinforce the behavior.
Would this be considered positive reinforcement operant conditioning?
Would the 2 different reward types be treats and playing fetch?
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Nice job, @hollyjmartinez – good answer! @Karin You are right – the trainer is working on Lucy dropping the toy and backing up. I think the pause, where she has her hand in the down position, is her just waiting on Lucy to offer the correct next behavior (backing up). You’ll often see this when shaping has been used. The pause is simply waiting for the dog to come up with the winning behavior. Lucy knows that the hand won’t pick up the toy until she’s a certain distance away from it. By waiting, the trainer is giving Lucy a chance to think.
It is operant conditioning, to be sure, in that Lucy is the “operant” and her choice gives her a certain consequence. It is also shaping because the behavior isn’t quite finished yet. Lucy is still in a learning stage, which is why we see the pause. If we want to talk about positive reinforcement and negative punishment here, we would have to define which behavior we are discussing.
The behavior of backing away is being positively reinforced -Lucy gets the treat, then the toy, when she backs away. The behavior is made stronger by adding something Lucy likes.
The behavior of lunging at the hand could be negatively punished – Lucy does not get the toy if she makes forward movement after dropping the toy. We don’t see this in the video because the trainer carefully shaped the backing away response and therefore is able to stay completely in the positive reinforcement quadrant.
Does that clear up the terms for you?
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Thank you so much for the explanations! Yes, it clears up the terms and I have a better understanding of how to use it in context when speaking to people and/or clients.
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Happy to help, @Karin – Always feel free to bring your questions to Digging Dogs!
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This is brilliant! The cue of the hand reaching down would be so useful – it is the action that most people do naturally when going to pick up a toy…or stolen item that that need to take away for a dog.
At first glance I thought Down was what the trainer was looking for but it quickly became clear that movement away from the toy was the behavior that was being reinforced. Through this line of thought, maybe I was following a dog through their thinking during a shaping session?
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I see what you mean, @jenwalker – is it a “down” signal? Sure could be what Lucy was thinking at first. It’s always great to put your mind into the perspective of the dog!
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Can I ask how she originally got the dog to back away from the toy the first time (and the second, and the third, etc…)? Did the dog originally just offer that as one of the behaviors in order to get her to pick it up and throw it again, or did the trainer have to do something to get her to back away (like throw a treat in the opposite direction away from the toy)? I know the video shows the finished behavior of moving away from dropped toy but how was it taught from the start? Thanks!
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Great question. We can share ideas and then ultimately it will be our community leader @catherine who can get the answers from Trainer Virginia Dare on her method.
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Great questions, @debbie – I’ve reached out to Virginia and will let you know when I get an answer.
Meanwhile, I think you are on track with the treat toss -that seems like a good idea to begin if the dog won’t back up on their own.
And I’ve tossed toys for many a snatchy dog who think that a re-grab is just all part of the teasing fun. They don’t have to be a “toy resource guarder” in the sense of aggression – but rather, playfully playing keep-away – but the bite still hurts all the same!
I’ll post an update here when I hear back from Virginia.
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I’ll be watching for those details from Virginia Dare!
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Thanks, David. I look forward to the answer of how she worked this behavior. It sounds like Lucy is a toy resource guarder. I recently saw a way to correct or change that behavior by walking by the dog with her toy and dropping high value treats between the dog’s paws but not attempting to take away the toy. This way the dog makes a positive association of someone coming near the toy. Eventually, the dog allows the person to touch the toy and even pulls away or brings the toy to the person for a treat. But I don’t know how the actual “backing up” motion behavior was trained unless it was just captured and rewarded.
Debbie
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Virginia was more than happy to get back to us quickly! @debbie Here’s what Virginia said:
Like several other ACDs I’ve worked with, it seems a combination of a compulsive need to grab the object, and a true love of fetching, intermingled. I suppose there’s an element of guarding behavior, but the dogs WANT the human to throw the toy for them, it’s just hard to let go!
At only 5 months old, Lucy was already a hazard at her house because she’d grab so fiercely at dropped toys and was posing a risk to adults and kids alike.
The training was like this:
- At first, I presented just a very small approximation of my hand moving towards the toy. If Lucy held still, I’d click and then toss a treat away from her. Then I could pick up toy to begin another round of fetch.
- Gradually, I reached closer, while also looking for tiny backward movements on Lucy’s part, clicking just when that happened, and then tossing a treat.
- Gradually I shaped up more exaggerated backward movements on her part, even with me reaching fully to the toy.
- She was very quick to learn this. (If I recall correctly, she was only training at my house for under 2 weeks, and that was for a bunch of skills.)
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Thanks for posting the video and starting this thread @catherine. It is very helpful. I love Virginia’s entire approach to Lucy’s grabbiness, especially the steps she took to get her to back off. It just reinforces what I learned during the CATCH program and in my training experience: The slower you go, the faster you will go. The smaller the steps you take the more opportunity the dog has to succeed and earn reinforcement to build strong alternate behaviors. Moving too far too fast only slows things down. Take it from one who has had to learn the hard way.
Also enjoyed the discussion and feedback, especially @debbie for her special approach to address resource guarding using classical conditioning.
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Solid gold wisdom right here, @doggonespecial !
The slower you go, the faster you will go. The smaller the steps you take the more opportunity the dog has to succeed and earn reinforcement to build strong alternate behaviors. Moving too far too fast only slows things down. – Amy S.
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